Alright. I am so excited. I've got Kristen Edwards here, and we are gonna talk about leadership in the Enneagram. And I personally cannot wait. Thanks so much for joining me, Kristen.

Thank you, Kat. I am so excited for this conversation already.

Yes. Me too. I've been thinking about it for a while, and I'm, like, secretly hoping that you can drop a little like, a few tips for me and my Enneagram type, so we'll have to see if that happens. If not, I've already got some other ideas for Touching base with you after this. But, yeah, needless to say, I'm excited. Why don't you give everyone a little bit of a heads up on who you are, what you do, what your background is, and how you got into all of this.

Yeah. So like you said, my name's Kristen. I'm a leadership consultant. So I help women entrepreneurs to actually be effective leaders and also build strong and powerful teams all based on Knowing their Enneagram type. I entered the online space a couple years ago, and all I heard was niche down, and that Made me freak out and have a lot of anxiety like most new newer entrepreneurs. And so I figured out how to combine all the things that I loved, which was everything John Maxwell and leadership development as well as all personality assessments. I like to tell people I have masters in it, But I am now a certified Enneagram coach as well. So here's how your personality helps you to become An effective leader, and I love that I actually get paid to do it because I would be talking about it.

Right. And when you say you have a master's in it, like, you're not Kidding. Like, you actually have a degree in this stuff. You didn't just start doing it. Like, legit. You have the experience, which is the type of guest I like to bring on because I'm all about, you know, actually doing what you, like, have experience in doing. So tell us a little bit about that background.

Yeah. So undergrad was organizational communication, but my master's is in applied psychology. And my concentration in that was actually leadership development, but I studied all of the Human psychology that goes into running a team, running an organization. I worked in HR for 10 year well, I still consult in HR. So over 10 years working in corporate America, training from Developing your interns, kind of running internship programs, all the way through team training, team development. So this is my corporate background, formally ended as A diversity recruiter should bring more women and people of color into the technology space. And how do you make sure that the teams don't fall apart when you shake it up as well. So this is my professional background as well, but, you know, you don't always get to talk about the Enneagram at work in the same way, and people don't necessarily get it.

So I was a disc facilitator on the corporate side of things, but obsessed about the Enneagram like most people, and I kept studying it. And so when I started coaching on the side, that became the focus that I'm using, and now I help women entrepreneurs use the Enneagram in their business. So, Like I said, I didn't wanna niche down, so I figured out how to connect all of the dots.

I love it, and it sounds pretty niche to me. I like, it sounds incredible. Alright. So just in case I've got a listener who's like, I don't know what this Enneagram thing is. Just in case. Someone might be

listening, but it's okay. Every now and then, I do get people go, what is that? And so most of us are introduced to personality assessments like Myers Briggs. However, Myers Briggs is actually not backed in psychology. It's literally a thing that Carl Jung just Decided to create. We all love it. We all use it. It's totally fine. I'm an INTJ if you care.

And then if you worked in corporate America at some point, you probably were introduced to DISC or True Colors. And so along the same idea of a personality assessment of Fill out these questions, and you'll get an answer type of thing. However, the Enneagram, when I say that it's backed in psychology, although they've included psychology and a lot of these others. The Enneagram, you are born a certain type, and it sticks with you the entire time. So your Myers Briggs, your DISC, your True Colors, Strengths finder. Those can change over time based on the situations that you face in life. Your Enneagram says, this is who you are. This is how you respond.

This is why you do what you do. This is why you're quirky in certain ways and why you react in These situations and so your core number never changes, but we can move around the circle in terms of strength and growth Moments just as much as when we're, like, stressed out and triggered by other situations. And so we have wing types, core your core number, your wings, stress number, your growth number. There's a lot of things. And if you ever Google it, it is a diagram for a reason. And so it can be really, really complicated, But as you dive into knowing your core number, you start to love and learn to embrace all of who you are. And especially when you grow up in your family, regardless of how popular you might have been in school, you're always the weird one in your family, and it starts to explain The nature and nurture effect of why you ended up a certain way as the middle child versus the oldest or an only child, If your parents were very involved and you have, like, a helicopter mom versus really absent parents, all of those things start to make sense in your Enneagram type as well. And then it travels with you your entire life.

So in your personal relationships, like a marriage, just as much as your professional working relationships, If you're the CEO or the COO, why do we choose those positions and love them over time as well? And a lot of that, As you explore your Enneagram type, you're like, oh, that makes sense. Why I wanna be number 2 in the organization and not number 1 or vice versa. And so I love the Enneagram because it teaches you how your plane is really working, and then you get to make a choice to respond differently or To embrace it and be like, it is what it is. This is who I am. Take it or leave it as well. And so I love the confidence that you gain from that self awareness, just as much as the communication and other dynamics that we learn from it too.

Yeah. Okay. So fascinating. And it's interesting. So first, How early do you think that your Enneagram can be, like, established? I'm like, I wonder if I could already figure out my kids' Enneagram types or if they're too young.

So you are not supposed to even try and figure out your Enneagram type until you're 21, Literally because your human brain is not developed until women at 21, men, I think, at 24, 25, because, you know, women are great. Okay. So we can start testing around 21. They will say that depending on how aware someone is like, there's very self aware teenagers. They might start to recognize new types sometimes as early as, like, 13, 14. You are never supposed to type your children, which let me tell you is So hard for me not to do, but you are not supposed to technically type your children at any point. Because What happens, and if you think about it, then you I'll I'll explain why you'll be like, oh, okay. Let me not type them.

So if I decide and I'll be really honest. I think my son might be a 6, which as an 8, you guys can take social media and see how that goes. Go with the stereotype of social media. But if I start to treat my son like a type 6, I can either make him a very strong 6 or I can make him a very unhealthy 6. But what if my son's actually a one and I start treating him like a 6? You can start to imagine, even if you don't understand what those different types are, if you start treating someone a certain way, You'll start to manipulate this environment that you're putting them in, and then that can make them a not healthy version of themselves regardless of what their true type might be. And so even with a psychology degree, even with an Enneagram coaching certification, I'm like, okay. Don't type him. Let him respond how he needs to.

So good.

Even worse with my daughter because I'm like, cannot make her a certain number. She's only 2a half. But You do not want to create an unhealthy version of someone. We all want our children to be productive members of Society. Right? Good citizens. All those things that we treat think about. And so you wanna make sure you're not manipulating an environment that actually causes harm to that person, especially at such a young and developmental age in comparison to letting them grow and blossom and become whoever God created them to be.

Yeah. I love that. I mean, you know, obviously, this is a completely different thing here, but I remember reading a book on the love languages and applying that to kids and how, like, for children, how you really need to show them love in all of the ways so that they have that And this kinda just reminds me of that. Like, just let them live life and develop and experience all the things and become who they are versus trying to, yeah, like, cast them into this type. So so good. Good reminder. The temptation will be there to try to figure it out, but I will hold off until, I guess, he's my oldest child is A boy, so I'll wait till he's, I guess, 24, 25. 24, 25.

25. Yeah. Okay. And then my daughter, I'll wait till she's 21. Try to figure it out.

Yeah. And trust me, we start to see it and especially with your children just because I do know you, because you're so self aware, They'll actually probably become a little bit more self aware earlier in life, so you might start to see certain things. There are kids in high school who find the Enneagram, and they become in learning it. And so, usually, because of that natural love for learning and development, they can type a little bit sooner and still type accurately. So continue for you to be very self aware, and you might be able to type them in high school. Okay.

Got it. No pressure. No pressure. Right. Let's translate this over to leadership. Of course, I had to go down that route with kids, but let's go over to leadership and teen stuff. And first, I want to just spell a myth that I actually heard once, and I'm just curious of your take. But out of all of the different personality assessments, There was only once, but I heard that actually using the Enneagram like, some people might not want on a team to give you their Enneagram type because it's almost like opening the doors and telling you everything about them without telling you everything about them.

So any feedback or, like, anything you come up against with talking about Enneagram with your team.

Yeah. So I have seen and a lot of companies actually do this where they'll ask you to take Take any type of personality assessment in the hiring process, and that to me is wrong. So if you are looking to bring on a team member, you can't start with like, Hey. What's your Enneagram type? I may or may not want to hire you. That is wrong. However, once that person is already on their team and things are starting to integrate even, let's say, after the initial orientation process. So give it a couple weeks, then you can start to ask They're Enneagram type. The same way that as someone's working with you, you start to say after a couple weeks, right, you can't Say, are you a mom and what are your hours gonna be on day 1? But after a couple weeks, how can we make this the best possible environment? As your leader, I wanna make sure that I'm making an environment that helps you to learn and grow and develop.

And so that's when you can start to Those conversations of what's your Enneagram type, how are we going to work best together? Some people are like, rip the Band Aid off. Tell me what it is. Call me out on my ish. I'm ready to learn and grow. I want the challenge. Right? I'm an 8, so that's me. Just call me out, and I'll get it together. Where other people really need you to Soften it.

Give the sandwich approach of, like, I really love this, and we need to work on this, but you're super awesome. I don't have time for that. Just call me out. But certain types will literally pull back, and they won't be able to perform if you don't deliver those expectations in a really pretty, fluffy way. And so knowing how that person's going to receive the feedback is really important. And so I can say, okay. This person's a 2. I need to be gentle with my approach.

This person's a 3. I need to boost them up a little bit before I deliver that feedback. But Every 3 is gonna rise to the expectations you set, but set them clearly for them. Knowing that person's type and how you support them is really important, but I'd say, yes, wait until after the hiring and the orientation before you start to do that. You can work with every single type. I think I know that's gonna be a question that you've asked. Every type can work with another type as long as they make the choice to do so. And so that's where a lot of us get shaky because we don't want to work with a certain type because we've made assumptions about another group or that group's made Assumptions about us.

That's when things can get difficult, but the same way that we're learning to be inclusive of all other types, let's be inclusive of Enneagram types just as much. So here's your personality type. I choose to work with you as long as I choose to understand so we can have a strong communication in our working relationship.

So good. Yes. I can just reflect back, and I don't know Enneagram types of some of the people that I'm reflecting on. But, like, I know that my delivery, my natural delivery in giving feedback or Just direction day to day wasn't, again, naturally, the way that they like to hear it, and so sometimes that caused friction. And I know I tried to really learn them and their approach, and I can just see how important that is and how the Enneagram could really help to enrich that and really bring to light more understanding for me as a leader for how to approach those conversations. Because there's I've heard this before in the corporate world where it's like, okay, So and so is the manager. They're the boss. Like, you know, you're an employee.

You need to adapt to them. And I'm not sure. I love that. I actually I think, sure, the team member needs to respect and, you know, like, all of that for their leader. But at the same time, I think it's the leader's responsibility to really learn how to lead their team well, and this is a a great tool to do that. Any thoughts on that piece?

Yeah. I mean, I think old school leadership is this person earns their way to where they are, so we just have to deal with it. And if we're Very conscious, and this is something that I'd say it's actually within the last 30 to 40 years. So the grand scheme of life and the grand scheme of corporate America, Not that long. Like, leadership is something new that we're studying, but how do you become an effective leader? And so part of it, yes, absolutely, it's on the leader to Reach out and say, 1, acknowledge that they have a certain style. Right? There's many types of leaders. I have personal thoughts to what's right and wrong, but, Technically, there's different types of leaders, and you do need to adjust as an employee, as a team member to what that leader is like. Now can you be really cautious about what type of jobs you're applying to? Can you ask questions? Right? Job interviews, whether it's in the online business space or in any other Setting.

A job interview is supposed to be a mutual fit. And I think a lot of times we are like, well, if they give me the job, I'm gonna take the job. And it's like, well, do you want To work fair, I could probably walk into a construct construction zone. And with an HR and operations background, I can get a job because they need things to happen, but I'm gonna be miserable because I don't like walking to from my house to my car in the sun. So now you want me outside all the time? Like, no. And so it's not just like, can you do the job? But is that an environment that you want to be it. And so as an employee, do your due diligence of what type of leader you're trying to submit yourself to. But as a leader, Also recognize that there are 7,500,000,000 humans on the planet, and you need to be up front was, hey.

This is the job environment. I wanna make sure it works for you. But once you've hired that person, be as flexible as you can to create a long lasting relationship. I mean, no job on the face of the Earth works well if you have a revolving door of people. Right? It doesn't matter if it's McDonald's or Walmart just as much as it's Google or, you know, some other, you know, start up or technology company or an online business. I don't care if it's 2 people or 2,000,000 people in your corporation. A revolving door doesn't work, but that honesty component is a lot of times where we start to lose it.

Yeah. So good. And so as you were talking, I was thinking about the idea of really building a team of, quote unquote, like, A players or building a world class team. And again, like going back to your statement before, I believe that every type Can be an a player. Every type can make up a world class team, but I think it's probably more about than every team member being the healthy version of their Enneagram type. So how can we focus on that as a leader?

Yeah. And so absolutely. I I agree with you. The healthy version of yourself is what makes you a great member of a team. Whether you're the CEO, the COO, you're a sales manager, or any other Position, you can be stocking inventory. But if you're showing up as the best version of yourself, you're still gonna be recognized as the best employee of the organization. And so it's really important to recognize that. The first thing is to know your type.

And so if you don't know your Enneagram type, Go find out. But you can also self type yourself. And so it starts with your triads. And so are you heart centered, head centered, or body centered? And that tells me how you respond to things. So if you've had the best day in your life of your life, are you crying about it? Are you planning how to celebrate it? Or you're just doing a happy dance. Right? Or if you've had the worst day of your life, are you still crying underneath the table? Are you planning the solution immediately, like, not even allowing yourself to feel what you're already thinking, or are you Doing something that's probably not the best choice. You know, I usually give the example. If you got fired from your job, COVID was really hard on a lot of people, and they did lose Positions in whether in the online space or working in a brick and mortar of some way, they lost positions.

Did you wanna reach through the phone and punch your boss in the face? If so, probably an 8901. And I'm not saying that anyone did anything wrong because we're professional, but what was that natural reaction? And a lot of times, we pass over the natural instincts to recognize who we really are inside because our mom, our religion, Our bosses over time have told us to respond a certain way. And so what's the natural reaction? Go back to that. Again, heart, head, or body center. Ground yourself. And then as you start to know your type, You can start to look at what your growth number is. And so when you look at the Enneagram, you see arrows coming out all over the place. So look at your core number.

There's an arrow to the right. And so I'm a type 8. At my best, I'll look like a 2 being an advocate for others. I know you're a type 5. So As a 5, at your best, you'll look like an 8, and you're actually willing to speak out and challenge a situation. And so Most people will say, oh, well, this is what that growth number is and start to lean into that. And so, again, using you as an example, it's a 5 very operationally minded. Even when we before you hit record, you're like, here's the structure of this time together, which is totally fine for me because I as an aide, I need people to keep me organized as well, and I love when other people take control, and I don't have to.

But for you to use your voice and to lead a conversation to step up and do it puts you at a healthy version of yourself. And when people see that in you, They're gonna run towards you in comparison to as a 5. When you're stressed, you'll start to look like a 7. You'll up everything. You're like, let's just have a good time. People are like, oh. Like, everyone will get scared when you're a little too loose and spontaneous About that. And so recognizing what a healthy version of yourself looks like and an unhealthy.

And it's not to say you're not allowed to have fun, But what are the reasons behind it? It always comes back to the motive behind why you make those choices. For me as an 8, actually, what I've stressed, I go into a research organization and planning mode. And so I get a little too into the details. I have to pull back and be like, Okay. It is what it is. It will be okay, which is hard for me to identify with cause and hate, but knowing that about yourself. But, again, When I'm at my best, I start to take all of that knowledge and information that I have, the way too many certifications that I've acquired over time, And I help other people to become the best version of themselves as well. So recognizing that about yourself, About your team members and regardless of your title, regardless of if it's online or in person or any other type of business structure, How can I be excited to do what I do? And if you're not excited to roll out of bed and do your job, most days we're still human, but most days, if you're not Excited? Then maybe it's time to look for a job change because you should be excited.

Right? That whole concept of, You know, find what you do what you love and will never work a day in your life is relatively true. You're still gonna work. You're still gonna have to put in the effort regardless of what it is, but you should be excited to sit at your desk in the morning for whatever or if it's a labor intensive job, you should be excited to show up in that construction zone. And if even if you've been doing it for 20 years, if you get to a point where you're like, the passion is no longer there. And it's not just like I need to sleep for 2 days and I'll be back, but, truly, the passion is not there and you can't revive it. And, hey, guess what? It's okay for a career change. It's okay to either push yourself into a new position to take a promotion so you can have a challenge again Recognize this industry is no longer serving me, and it's time to move elsewhere. And that's a scary thing to recognize, To accept and to actually decide to change.

But that's when you're able to find the opportunities and really create The life that you wanted to be excited for at. But it all comes back to recognizing what gets you excited in the morning and pushing yourself towards that. Like, pushing yourself towards the growth. Now when I say that, I will say that it's uncomfortable. It's scary. It will give you butterflies in your stomach. Some people will actually get Sick physically because our brains are wired to keep us safe, but pushing ourselves into that challenge is also a great thing. If you're athletic, You know that the dance competition, the marathon, the tough mothers that we used to do pre COVID, those weird challenges that we would put our bodies through at the end.

We were so proud of ourselves to know that I just ran a marathon. I will never run a marathon. So the example of A marathon, right, of completing even a 5 k, of doing a fundraiser for an organization that you truly care about. Right? The things that get you excited in terms of losing your body and being healthy are the same things that our brain wants of being challenged so that we can find that growth and unlock our next level.

So much to think about in all of that. I could really sit and talk to you for days. I know it. Let's do it. Wonderful. I know. Right? Okay. So Let's dive in maybe to on the practical side, like, what are some of the areas that you touch on for leaders of any type? Because as much as I'd love to.

I know that we don't have time to talk through every type and strengths, weaknesses, all of that. I know that that's something that you can help everyone with. So if If you're listening and you want that, go talk to Kristen. But let's talk about just some of the key areas you should focus on and how you can use the Enneagram to really uncover more about each of those.

So especially when I'm working with a group of you know, if you have 15 or 20 people, yes, I can work with everyone 1 on 1, but, like, the bill will add up for you. And so what I usually focus on is those triads that I mentioned, the heart, head, and body. Because if you're 2, 3, or 4, although your motives are different, your actions will look the same to other people. And so how does the heart triad relate To the body triad or the body triad, the lead to the head triad. And so that's one of the easiest ways to kind of get an overall sense of The motives behind people and the actions the choices that they're making as well. And so you can literally Google what those triads kind of mean, but they are Also self explanatory. And so as someone who's a part of the body triad, I have learned to trust my gut. And so my gut Used to get me in trouble because, again, as children, we just do dumb things.

Right? Like, we're immature. Our brains are not fully developed. Haven't had life experiences to teach us the right ways. And so I used to make choices and do things Led by my gut, that gut reaction, and that would get me in trouble. I'd say something without thinking about it, not knowing what my emotions were behind it. Even when I do have emotions as part of a body triad, when things don't go our way, we look angry to people. And even when I'm super excited about something, if I'm really focused, I have RBF. I can be really passionate about the topic, And I get so into the psychology behind the psychology that people are like, why are you so mean? And I was like, no.

No. No. That was passion. I'm so sorry. Like, I don't confuse the 2, but that's something that I have to recognize as a part of it. But the downside of that was that because there were so many Stumbling blocks along the way. I never trusted myself. And so my first reaction, I learned to think that my first reaction was the wrong reaction, and I was doing The opposite.

And over time, you can only imagine how not trusting yourself and not trusting where you were being led Can hurt you over time. And so for me, a big learning curve was learning to trust my gut, to learn that, okay, the reason that you thought that was because it's True. Those dreams are worthy of being pursued. Like, you are worthy of chasing your dreams. That was something I had to learn myself. But if you have someone on the team that's a part of the body triad, you know, eights, we have a lot of opinions, but depending on Our work experience, we've never said them out loud because it does get us in trouble because we don't have a softer brush to things. A 9 being a peacemaker. They just want other people to be happy, so they still won't speak up because they rather everyone else be served and pleased.

But They are fueled with a lot of things, and are ready to go. They actually have thoughts. Sometimes you have to call A 9 out, but they might not speak. So maybe you ask a 9 on your team to write down their opinions. The suggestion box idea works really well for nines. They do have ideas. They're just scared to ruffle feathers in how they say things as well. A one.

Right or wrong, black or white, they have a very strong standard of excellence. They make great pastors. They make great lawyers. They make great teachers, educators as well. But if they're not in the right setting, a lot of people just see them as holier than thou. And they're like, no. Actually, I just want good in the I just want to include and serve and benefit others. But if they're not given the right platform, people can perceive it in the wrong way.

And so All of us having to learn how to trust our gut and not let anger hold us back from finding the justice that we desire. Same thing with your twos, threes, and fours. I feel like a lot of online entrepreneurs are part of the heart triad, and we want good in the world. But when we're not able to see the impact that we're making, when they're not able to see that lives are better, that money is being made, that charities are being funded, They start to feel ashamed. Like, all of a sudden, the whole world is on their backs, and they have let everyone down. And you're like, No. You just had the flu and you needed 2 days off. Like, it's going to be okay, but that's not how they see it.

As well also recognizing if you have a 2, 3, or 4 on your team. That one, you are going to have to say, hey. Good job, and I see you, and I appreciate you. You are gonna have to take 5 seconds of your time. Don't need to buy them a trophy, but you do need to use your I mean, they'll take a trophy. Don't get me wrong. But you'll have to, but you are gonna to say, hey. 2, 3, or 4.

I see you. I hear you. I acknowledge you, and I appreciate that you're still going. I appreciate that you're part of my team. A lot of threes will probably be the CEO because they want everyone else to see them as successful. They actually probably don't want to be the boss, but their desire to please others and that's for a lot of 2, threes, and fours. So the head triad, Heart triad. I'm sorry.

They want to please others. And so in order to do that, they keep rising to the top. They keep becoming the leader. But the truth is our system overall, and I'm being very, very broad, does not want people to lead effectively, Does not teach us how to be leaders. Like, you have to go out of your way to say, I would like to be a good leader. Please give me information. Feel you have to get a PhD in leadership for people to recognize and believe that, like, you're doing it for the right reason sometimes as well. And so you'll see a 3 go out of their way to prove themselves with accolades to design their entire wall with their trophies and their certificates, their diplomas for that reason.

Where your fours are like, show me the opposite. I want to show you how different I am, How much I can stand out. And so finding a way to bring that back in and balance that, but recognizing that if you don't say, I see you. I hear you invalidate your heart centered people. They will internalize that in a way that actually defeats the entire purpose and goal as well. So just tell them that you appreciate your twos, threes, and fours, 2 threes, and fours. I appreciate you. I see you.

I hear you, and that's gonna bring the entire team moving forward. And then last but certainly not least, the head triad. 5, 6, and 7. So your fives are your researchers. Your 6 are your loyalists or guardians and your 7th being your spontaneous enthusiast party animals as well, but all of them have a 100 ideas running through their brain. Your fives can plan an entire wedding weekend in about 30 seconds with details, with budget, and tell you where every vendor is coming from. And you're like, have you met the bride yet? We're like, oh, no. Not yet.

And I've seen that with my wedding planners as well. And you'll see that I think fives make phenomenal number twos or number threes in a business, and they're the best Support to a type seven ever. Because sevens have ideas, but they don't write them down. A 5 will write it down, give them the plan, And actually be excited to keep doing the operational work behind that sevens vision. So they'll make really great business partners. Not saying you have to work with someone In that, they make great balance to each other as well. The sixes are loyalist. They are going to stick to you like glue.

They also have a lot of information, but they use that information to stay connected with you. You could almost think of them as that friend that knows random trivia about Everything as well, but you also know that they're the 1st person you're going to call when you're like, I don't know this. I can't find it on Google. They've got your back And your 7th, like I said, a 1000000 ideas going through their head, but their brain's going so fast that they would actually forget if it's a time to write it down. And so finding that balance. But for those 7s, if they are not being seen for their thoughts, their ideas, if you're not listening To all of the information that they have, they start to feel afraid. They will pull back and feel like they are completely unloved and unworthy Because no one is listening to what they have. And I will say as an 8, and to anyone else that is a leader, so my threes too that we tend to dominate this space.

Your fives are right, so stop challenging them. They actually are right. They probably know more than you do. Don't care if you have a PhD. They still probably have done more research. They just didn't get the letters behind their name to do it. So trust your fives. You everyone should have a fives On their team at some point, even if it's not your 1st hire, you need a 5 on your team.

I just have to say I just have to say real quick, as a 5, I'm I'm gonna make my husband and back to what you just said.

Yeah. You know? Listen. It took a long time for me to get there and to accept it, and all my aids listening are rolling their eyes, but it's Totally fine. You don't have to admit it. You just need to hire a 500 team at some point. And recognize that they are fives and eights also work really well together because eights Are ready to run, but we don't want to stop and think until those 5s will help balance us out and think when we don't want to make the time to do those And so I think the the balance of communication, though, is really important. And so recognizing that shame and rejection, that fear or that anger, Where is it coming from based on those triads, and how can we fuel it to help others, to serve others, and to balance out our team to help, to serve, to give, to provide information, to make the world a better place because we all want good in the world, but we Get triggered a certain way if it's not happening the way we imagined it as well.

Yeah. Oh my goodness. I want to really dive in to so many aspects of this. But let's go back to you were mentioning, like, the CEO and COO relationship at some point, And I just wanna touch on this and ask maybe a couple of questions or your take on it. So for me as a 5, I really have been in the background as a COO and been very comfortable there for a lot of my career. And then I've had to really, I think maybe go with the the grow like, the direction of growth as an eight and really embrace that to step into the CEO role in my own business. And Now I have a 2nd in command, and he is an 8. So we're a 5 8 duo, but almost like maybe I feel like almost the reverse.

Like, some days I feel like I'm more of the integrator type, but I'm having to step into that CEO role. And I don't know why I bring this up other than just out of curiosity, I suppose, but, like, Any take on me personally transitioning into that higher level and also for listeners, like, that combination of the CEO, COO role because I work with so many who either already have a second in command or really want to have a second in command.

Yeah. So I think that first thing is for you. And like you said, you recognize that, like, it was comfortable for me. And so how do you find that growth to grow your business. Right? I've seen you I've been stalking on social media long enough. So I've seen what you've done with so many other businesses, but now it's time for you to take that for your business. And so let's see 8 figures soon. I'm just pushing it out to you.

But that's me as an 8. Right? I'm just projecting that you're going to 8 figures next. But as you do that, that growth is gonna be an adjustment because you used to, like you said, implement someone else's vision, and now you have to take that vision and have others it for you. And I think the hard thing and I'm not saying that you do this, but to make sure that you never micromanage someone, That you trust the people that you hire, and that's everyone. Right? We need to trust the people. That's the whole point of an interview is to make sure that that balance Is there for what you need? I think a lot of people when they're creating a job description, when they are hiring this is me speaking as a recruiter. So All of people that have to hire. They go, well, this is what I want.

I need someone with this many years of experience in this industry knowing x, y, and z, But we forget to think about what are the gaps on our team. And if you're a solopreneur and you're hiring those first few people, What do you need to balance you out? And so for you at your core knowing you're a 5, you know that you need someone who's going to push you out of your comfort So do you hire the gate to be your COO? Because at the end of the day, he's gonna tell you probably what you don't want to hear, but still Need to hear. And so that balance still works out that although you're the CEO and he's the COO, you're still gonna have someone pushing you to lead, to be an effective leader, out of your comfort zone to be the best version of yourself. And so that balance still comes into play. And so it's not just about Who's gonna check these boxes or who's going to I think the thought is when I hire a VA, they take x, y, and z off my plate. And I'm like, cool. But your VA is also part of your team. And so if you're less than 6 figures in your business, that VA is a pseudo COO Until you get in that level and you need to start thinking that way from the beginning.

A lot of people don't think about that. Like, right? We're taught to delegate as a leader, but we're not Taught how to lead others. And so that's what I get, like, all riled up about. And I know you do the same Yeah. Thing as well. But If you've ever been number 2, 3, or 4 in a position right now, we're all 18 at our 1st job at some point. You've had a boss. How did that boss treat you? And so either you need to be better than the boss that you had or you desire to be just the boss that you had.

And being a boss is easy, but being a leader is another level. How are you managing others? How are you listening to what they mean? How are you creating space that they still get to go home and sleep at night regardless of the industry that you're in. Even if it's like we're not sleeping this weekend, but you can sleep on Monday, What is that balance that you create for your team? So it's about recognizing. It's about understanding. But the first thing is really to be aware of How you are going to show up so that you can see what's needed. And I know filling in the gaps of where do I fall short is nothing you want to pay attention to, That's gonna be the key thing to making sure that you hire people that you know, like, and trust so that they can also know, like, and trust you too.

Yeah. You know, they're such a big thing. I hear this all the time. And, you know, entrepreneurs will come to me and they'll say, I want to hire someone. But, essentially, like, they here's what they say. They say, I wanna clone myself. And I'm like, no. You don't.

No. You don't.

No. You shouldn't. That's great. Because 2 of you in their business means that you're gonna be stuck in the exact same place. And so if you're really great with operations, And you want someone who's gonna be really great with being the face. Right? And so maybe you're a person who is really good behind the scenes. A little bit harder in online business where we have to be our brand and we have to be the face of our business. But, hey, if you're doing products, You hire a fitness model and they get to be the face of your business.

But whether you are Nike or Facebook or, you know, us as online business owners, there still needs To be a representation and a face. And do you wanna show up as a sports mom, which you and I both Kind of do as well, or do you wanna show up as, like, I am the corporate executive that I literally show up on Instagram with a suit on? Like, Personal choices of recognizing what that foundation is going to be and know that as you show up authentically, which is the truth that we never want do. But when you show up as the real you and how you look 90% of the time, which for me is not a suit, You know, that's what's gonna bring in the people who are actually going to excel in your with your services, excel with the product that they have. You want someone to have phenomenal results After they pay you, and that's because you're showing up as your true Enneagram type. So you're building your team by saying, this is who I am. Right? I hope you like it. Think about the same thing with your marriage. I know people are like, oh, my business is not like my marriage, but it is.

It's a relationship. It's a working relationship, not Intimate one, but it's that same thing of we're gonna be sitting together. Everyone wants to say they don't work that hard. So 20 hours a week. The truth is 30, 40, 50, 60, depending on where you are in your business. We're showing up together in this environment, and whether it's virtual or in person, We need to get to know each other on a way that we can respect each other, that we can trust each other, but that we can also push back on the other person to get what we need. Right? As an employee, at some point in your life, you've learned how to get what you need out of your manager. Whether it's a day off, whether it's a raise, whether it's recognition for a job well done.

And so you need to continue that same momentum. Okay. I recognize you. I see you. I'm gonna validate your hard work with an extra bonus. Right? We have phenomenal launch of a 100 k. Yes. You have your base pay, but here's a bonus because we did better than the initial goal or whatever that might look like, and so never abandoning someone that's supporting you as well.

So the same time you invest in a personal relationship, you also wanna invest in your teams and the people you're working with, And that's gonna create a client experience that makes your clients come back or tell their friends that come to you as well. So it it honestly all adds The bottom line was you know how to lead effectively.

100%. Okay. If people wanna dive in more, where Can they learn more about you? Because there's a lot more to talk about, and I want everyone to know where to find you.

Yeah. So on social media, I show up most on Instagram, so come find me there at Coach Kettes. Links in my bio if you want to work with me, and I also have a podcast called Amplify Ambition. And so tips, tricks, calling you out because I am a type eight. That's where you can hear it most often on the podcast Broadmeister Brown.

Perfect. And if you had just one thing to leave everyone with, what would that be?

Dream loudly. Your dreams are there for a reason. And regardless of the obstacles that you're facing, do not allow others or yourself to Hold you back, and so go chase your dreams. Figure out how to make it happen. And if you're committed to it, you can knock down every wall that's in your way.

 

Thank you. Thank you so much.

 

Thank you. This was so much fun.

Alright. I am so excited. I've got Kristen Edwards here, and we are gonna talk about leadership in the Enneagram. And I personally cannot wait. Thanks so much for joining me, Kristen.

Thank you, Kat. I am so excited for this conversation already.

Yes. Me too. I've been thinking about it for a while, and I'm, like, secretly hoping that you can drop a little like, a few tips for me and my Enneagram type, so we'll have to see if that happens. If not, I've already got some other ideas for Touching base with you after this. But, yeah, needless to say, I'm excited. Why don't you give everyone a little bit of a heads up on who you are, what you do, what your background is, and how you got into all of this.

Yeah. So like you said, my name's Kristen. I'm a leadership consultant. So I help women entrepreneurs to actually be effective leaders and also build strong and powerful teams all based on Knowing their Enneagram type. I entered the online space a couple years ago, and all I heard was niche down, and that Made me freak out and have a lot of anxiety like most new newer entrepreneurs. And so I figured out how to combine all the things that I loved, which was everything John Maxwell and leadership development as well as all personality assessments. I like to tell people I have masters in it, But I am now a certified Enneagram coach as well. So here's how your personality helps you to become An effective leader, and I love that I actually get paid to do it because I would be talking about it.

Right. And when you say you have a master's in it, like, you're not Kidding. Like, you actually have a degree in this stuff. You didn't just start doing it. Like, legit. You have the experience, which is the type of guest I like to bring on because I'm all about, you know, actually doing what you, like, have experience in doing. So tell us a little bit about that background.

Yeah. So undergrad was organizational communication, but my master's is in applied psychology. And my concentration in that was actually leadership development, but I studied all of the Human psychology that goes into running a team, running an organization. I worked in HR for 10 year well, I still consult in HR. So over 10 years working in corporate America, training from Developing your interns, kind of running internship programs, all the way through team training, team development. So this is my corporate background, formally ended as A diversity recruiter should bring more women and people of color into the technology space. And how do you make sure that the teams don't fall apart when you shake it up as well. So this is my professional background as well, but, you know, you don't always get to talk about the Enneagram at work in the same way, and people don't necessarily get it.

So I was a disc facilitator on the corporate side of things, but obsessed about the Enneagram like most people, and I kept studying it. And so when I started coaching on the side, that became the focus that I'm using, and now I help women entrepreneurs use the Enneagram in their business. So, Like I said, I didn't wanna niche down, so I figured out how to connect all of the dots.

I love it, and it sounds pretty niche to me. I like, it sounds incredible. Alright. So just in case I've got a listener who's like, I don't know what this Enneagram thing is. Just in case. Someone might be

listening, but it's okay. Every now and then, I do get people go, what is that? And so most of us are introduced to personality assessments like Myers Briggs. However, Myers Briggs is actually not backed in psychology. It's literally a thing that Carl Jung just Decided to create. We all love it. We all use it. It's totally fine. I'm an INTJ if you care.

And then if you worked in corporate America at some point, you probably were introduced to DISC or True Colors. And so along the same idea of a personality assessment of Fill out these questions, and you'll get an answer type of thing. However, the Enneagram, when I say that it's backed in psychology, although they've included psychology and a lot of these others. The Enneagram, you are born a certain type, and it sticks with you the entire time. So your Myers Briggs, your DISC, your True Colors, Strengths finder. Those can change over time based on the situations that you face in life. Your Enneagram says, this is who you are. This is how you respond.

This is why you do what you do. This is why you're quirky in certain ways and why you react in These situations and so your core number never changes, but we can move around the circle in terms of strength and growth Moments just as much as when we're, like, stressed out and triggered by other situations. And so we have wing types, core your core number, your wings, stress number, your growth number. There's a lot of things. And if you ever Google it, it is a diagram for a reason. And so it can be really, really complicated, But as you dive into knowing your core number, you start to love and learn to embrace all of who you are. And especially when you grow up in your family, regardless of how popular you might have been in school, you're always the weird one in your family, and it starts to explain The nature and nurture effect of why you ended up a certain way as the middle child versus the oldest or an only child, If your parents were very involved and you have, like, a helicopter mom versus really absent parents, all of those things start to make sense in your Enneagram type as well. And then it travels with you your entire life.

So in your personal relationships, like a marriage, just as much as your professional working relationships, If you're the CEO or the COO, why do we choose those positions and love them over time as well? And a lot of that, As you explore your Enneagram type, you're like, oh, that makes sense. Why I wanna be number 2 in the organization and not number 1 or vice versa. And so I love the Enneagram because it teaches you how your plane is really working, and then you get to make a choice to respond differently or To embrace it and be like, it is what it is. This is who I am. Take it or leave it as well. And so I love the confidence that you gain from that self awareness, just as much as the communication and other dynamics that we learn from it too.

Yeah. Okay. So fascinating. And it's interesting. So first, How early do you think that your Enneagram can be, like, established? I'm like, I wonder if I could already figure out my kids' Enneagram types or if they're too young.

So you are not supposed to even try and figure out your Enneagram type until you're 21, Literally because your human brain is not developed until women at 21, men, I think, at 24, 25, because, you know, women are great. Okay. So we can start testing around 21. They will say that depending on how aware someone is like, there's very self aware teenagers. They might start to recognize new types sometimes as early as, like, 13, 14. You are never supposed to type your children, which let me tell you is So hard for me not to do, but you are not supposed to technically type your children at any point. Because What happens, and if you think about it, then you I'll I'll explain why you'll be like, oh, okay. Let me not type them.

So if I decide and I'll be really honest. I think my son might be a 6, which as an 8, you guys can take social media and see how that goes. Go with the stereotype of social media. But if I start to treat my son like a type 6, I can either make him a very strong 6 or I can make him a very unhealthy 6. But what if my son's actually a one and I start treating him like a 6? You can start to imagine, even if you don't understand what those different types are, if you start treating someone a certain way, You'll start to manipulate this environment that you're putting them in, and then that can make them a not healthy version of themselves regardless of what their true type might be. And so even with a psychology degree, even with an Enneagram coaching certification, I'm like, okay. Don't type him. Let him respond how he needs to.

So good.

Even worse with my daughter because I'm like, cannot make her a certain number. She's only 2a half. But You do not want to create an unhealthy version of someone. We all want our children to be productive members of Society. Right? Good citizens. All those things that we treat think about. And so you wanna make sure you're not manipulating an environment that actually causes harm to that person, especially at such a young and developmental age in comparison to letting them grow and blossom and become whoever God created them to be.

Yeah. I love that. I mean, you know, obviously, this is a completely different thing here, but I remember reading a book on the love languages and applying that to kids and how, like, for children, how you really need to show them love in all of the ways so that they have that And this kinda just reminds me of that. Like, just let them live life and develop and experience all the things and become who they are versus trying to, yeah, like, cast them into this type. So so good. Good reminder. The temptation will be there to try to figure it out, but I will hold off until, I guess, he's my oldest child is A boy, so I'll wait till he's, I guess, 24, 25. 24, 25.

25. Yeah. Okay. And then my daughter, I'll wait till she's 21. Try to figure it out.

Yeah. And trust me, we start to see it and especially with your children just because I do know you, because you're so self aware, They'll actually probably become a little bit more self aware earlier in life, so you might start to see certain things. There are kids in high school who find the Enneagram, and they become in learning it. And so, usually, because of that natural love for learning and development, they can type a little bit sooner and still type accurately. So continue for you to be very self aware, and you might be able to type them in high school. Okay.

Got it. No pressure. No pressure. Right. Let's translate this over to leadership. Of course, I had to go down that route with kids, but let's go over to leadership and teen stuff. And first, I want to just spell a myth that I actually heard once, and I'm just curious of your take. But out of all of the different personality assessments, There was only once, but I heard that actually using the Enneagram like, some people might not want on a team to give you their Enneagram type because it's almost like opening the doors and telling you everything about them without telling you everything about them.

So any feedback or, like, anything you come up against with talking about Enneagram with your team.

Yeah. So I have seen and a lot of companies actually do this where they'll ask you to take Take any type of personality assessment in the hiring process, and that to me is wrong. So if you are looking to bring on a team member, you can't start with like, Hey. What's your Enneagram type? I may or may not want to hire you. That is wrong. However, once that person is already on their team and things are starting to integrate even, let's say, after the initial orientation process. So give it a couple weeks, then you can start to ask They're Enneagram type. The same way that as someone's working with you, you start to say after a couple weeks, right, you can't Say, are you a mom and what are your hours gonna be on day 1? But after a couple weeks, how can we make this the best possible environment? As your leader, I wanna make sure that I'm making an environment that helps you to learn and grow and develop.

And so that's when you can start to Those conversations of what's your Enneagram type, how are we going to work best together? Some people are like, rip the Band Aid off. Tell me what it is. Call me out on my ish. I'm ready to learn and grow. I want the challenge. Right? I'm an 8, so that's me. Just call me out, and I'll get it together. Where other people really need you to Soften it.

Give the sandwich approach of, like, I really love this, and we need to work on this, but you're super awesome. I don't have time for that. Just call me out. But certain types will literally pull back, and they won't be able to perform if you don't deliver those expectations in a really pretty, fluffy way. And so knowing how that person's going to receive the feedback is really important. And so I can say, okay. This person's a 2. I need to be gentle with my approach.

This person's a 3. I need to boost them up a little bit before I deliver that feedback. But Every 3 is gonna rise to the expectations you set, but set them clearly for them. Knowing that person's type and how you support them is really important, but I'd say, yes, wait until after the hiring and the orientation before you start to do that. You can work with every single type. I think I know that's gonna be a question that you've asked. Every type can work with another type as long as they make the choice to do so. And so that's where a lot of us get shaky because we don't want to work with a certain type because we've made assumptions about another group or that group's made Assumptions about us.

That's when things can get difficult, but the same way that we're learning to be inclusive of all other types, let's be inclusive of Enneagram types just as much. So here's your personality type. I choose to work with you as long as I choose to understand so we can have a strong communication in our working relationship.

So good. Yes. I can just reflect back, and I don't know Enneagram types of some of the people that I'm reflecting on. But, like, I know that my delivery, my natural delivery in giving feedback or Just direction day to day wasn't, again, naturally, the way that they like to hear it, and so sometimes that caused friction. And I know I tried to really learn them and their approach, and I can just see how important that is and how the Enneagram could really help to enrich that and really bring to light more understanding for me as a leader for how to approach those conversations. Because there's I've heard this before in the corporate world where it's like, okay, So and so is the manager. They're the boss. Like, you know, you're an employee.

You need to adapt to them. And I'm not sure. I love that. I actually I think, sure, the team member needs to respect and, you know, like, all of that for their leader. But at the same time, I think it's the leader's responsibility to really learn how to lead their team well, and this is a a great tool to do that. Any thoughts on that piece?

Yeah. I mean, I think old school leadership is this person earns their way to where they are, so we just have to deal with it. And if we're Very conscious, and this is something that I'd say it's actually within the last 30 to 40 years. So the grand scheme of life and the grand scheme of corporate America, Not that long. Like, leadership is something new that we're studying, but how do you become an effective leader? And so part of it, yes, absolutely, it's on the leader to Reach out and say, 1, acknowledge that they have a certain style. Right? There's many types of leaders. I have personal thoughts to what's right and wrong, but, Technically, there's different types of leaders, and you do need to adjust as an employee, as a team member to what that leader is like. Now can you be really cautious about what type of jobs you're applying to? Can you ask questions? Right? Job interviews, whether it's in the online business space or in any other Setting.

A job interview is supposed to be a mutual fit. And I think a lot of times we are like, well, if they give me the job, I'm gonna take the job. And it's like, well, do you want To work fair, I could probably walk into a construct construction zone. And with an HR and operations background, I can get a job because they need things to happen, but I'm gonna be miserable because I don't like walking to from my house to my car in the sun. So now you want me outside all the time? Like, no. And so it's not just like, can you do the job? But is that an environment that you want to be it. And so as an employee, do your due diligence of what type of leader you're trying to submit yourself to. But as a leader, Also recognize that there are 7,500,000,000 humans on the planet, and you need to be up front was, hey.

This is the job environment. I wanna make sure it works for you. But once you've hired that person, be as flexible as you can to create a long lasting relationship. I mean, no job on the face of the Earth works well if you have a revolving door of people. Right? It doesn't matter if it's McDonald's or Walmart just as much as it's Google or, you know, some other, you know, start up or technology company or an online business. I don't care if it's 2 people or 2,000,000 people in your corporation. A revolving door doesn't work, but that honesty component is a lot of times where we start to lose it.

Yeah. So good. And so as you were talking, I was thinking about the idea of really building a team of, quote unquote, like, A players or building a world class team. And again, like going back to your statement before, I believe that every type Can be an a player. Every type can make up a world class team, but I think it's probably more about than every team member being the healthy version of their Enneagram type. So how can we focus on that as a leader?

Yeah. And so absolutely. I I agree with you. The healthy version of yourself is what makes you a great member of a team. Whether you're the CEO, the COO, you're a sales manager, or any other Position, you can be stocking inventory. But if you're showing up as the best version of yourself, you're still gonna be recognized as the best employee of the organization. And so it's really important to recognize that. The first thing is to know your type.

And so if you don't know your Enneagram type, Go find out. But you can also self type yourself. And so it starts with your triads. And so are you heart centered, head centered, or body centered? And that tells me how you respond to things. So if you've had the best day in your life of your life, are you crying about it? Are you planning how to celebrate it? Or you're just doing a happy dance. Right? Or if you've had the worst day of your life, are you still crying underneath the table? Are you planning the solution immediately, like, not even allowing yourself to feel what you're already thinking, or are you Doing something that's probably not the best choice. You know, I usually give the example. If you got fired from your job, COVID was really hard on a lot of people, and they did lose Positions in whether in the online space or working in a brick and mortar of some way, they lost positions.

Did you wanna reach through the phone and punch your boss in the face? If so, probably an 8901. And I'm not saying that anyone did anything wrong because we're professional, but what was that natural reaction? And a lot of times, we pass over the natural instincts to recognize who we really are inside because our mom, our religion, Our bosses over time have told us to respond a certain way. And so what's the natural reaction? Go back to that. Again, heart, head, or body center. Ground yourself. And then as you start to know your type, You can start to look at what your growth number is. And so when you look at the Enneagram, you see arrows coming out all over the place. So look at your core number.

There's an arrow to the right. And so I'm a type 8. At my best, I'll look like a 2 being an advocate for others. I know you're a type 5. So As a 5, at your best, you'll look like an 8, and you're actually willing to speak out and challenge a situation. And so Most people will say, oh, well, this is what that growth number is and start to lean into that. And so, again, using you as an example, it's a 5 very operationally minded. Even when we before you hit record, you're like, here's the structure of this time together, which is totally fine for me because I as an aide, I need people to keep me organized as well, and I love when other people take control, and I don't have to.

But for you to use your voice and to lead a conversation to step up and do it puts you at a healthy version of yourself. And when people see that in you, They're gonna run towards you in comparison to as a 5. When you're stressed, you'll start to look like a 7. You'll up everything. You're like, let's just have a good time. People are like, oh. Like, everyone will get scared when you're a little too loose and spontaneous About that. And so recognizing what a healthy version of yourself looks like and an unhealthy.

And it's not to say you're not allowed to have fun, But what are the reasons behind it? It always comes back to the motive behind why you make those choices. For me as an 8, actually, what I've stressed, I go into a research organization and planning mode. And so I get a little too into the details. I have to pull back and be like, Okay. It is what it is. It will be okay, which is hard for me to identify with cause and hate, but knowing that about yourself. But, again, When I'm at my best, I start to take all of that knowledge and information that I have, the way too many certifications that I've acquired over time, And I help other people to become the best version of themselves as well. So recognizing that about yourself, About your team members and regardless of your title, regardless of if it's online or in person or any other type of business structure, How can I be excited to do what I do? And if you're not excited to roll out of bed and do your job, most days we're still human, but most days, if you're not Excited? Then maybe it's time to look for a job change because you should be excited.

Right? That whole concept of, You know, find what you do what you love and will never work a day in your life is relatively true. You're still gonna work. You're still gonna have to put in the effort regardless of what it is, but you should be excited to sit at your desk in the morning for whatever or if it's a labor intensive job, you should be excited to show up in that construction zone. And if even if you've been doing it for 20 years, if you get to a point where you're like, the passion is no longer there. And it's not just like I need to sleep for 2 days and I'll be back, but, truly, the passion is not there and you can't revive it. And, hey, guess what? It's okay for a career change. It's okay to either push yourself into a new position to take a promotion so you can have a challenge again Recognize this industry is no longer serving me, and it's time to move elsewhere. And that's a scary thing to recognize, To accept and to actually decide to change.

But that's when you're able to find the opportunities and really create The life that you wanted to be excited for at. But it all comes back to recognizing what gets you excited in the morning and pushing yourself towards that. Like, pushing yourself towards the growth. Now when I say that, I will say that it's uncomfortable. It's scary. It will give you butterflies in your stomach. Some people will actually get Sick physically because our brains are wired to keep us safe, but pushing ourselves into that challenge is also a great thing. If you're athletic, You know that the dance competition, the marathon, the tough mothers that we used to do pre COVID, those weird challenges that we would put our bodies through at the end.

We were so proud of ourselves to know that I just ran a marathon. I will never run a marathon. So the example of A marathon, right, of completing even a 5 k, of doing a fundraiser for an organization that you truly care about. Right? The things that get you excited in terms of losing your body and being healthy are the same things that our brain wants of being challenged so that we can find that growth and unlock our next level.

So much to think about in all of that. I could really sit and talk to you for days. I know it. Let's do it. Wonderful. I know. Right? Okay. So Let's dive in maybe to on the practical side, like, what are some of the areas that you touch on for leaders of any type? Because as much as I'd love to.

I know that we don't have time to talk through every type and strengths, weaknesses, all of that. I know that that's something that you can help everyone with. So if If you're listening and you want that, go talk to Kristen. But let's talk about just some of the key areas you should focus on and how you can use the Enneagram to really uncover more about each of those.

So especially when I'm working with a group of you know, if you have 15 or 20 people, yes, I can work with everyone 1 on 1, but, like, the bill will add up for you. And so what I usually focus on is those triads that I mentioned, the heart, head, and body. Because if you're 2, 3, or 4, although your motives are different, your actions will look the same to other people. And so how does the heart triad relate To the body triad or the body triad, the lead to the head triad. And so that's one of the easiest ways to kind of get an overall sense of The motives behind people and the actions the choices that they're making as well. And so you can literally Google what those triads kind of mean, but they are Also self explanatory. And so as someone who's a part of the body triad, I have learned to trust my gut. And so my gut Used to get me in trouble because, again, as children, we just do dumb things.

Right? Like, we're immature. Our brains are not fully developed. Haven't had life experiences to teach us the right ways. And so I used to make choices and do things Led by my gut, that gut reaction, and that would get me in trouble. I'd say something without thinking about it, not knowing what my emotions were behind it. Even when I do have emotions as part of a body triad, when things don't go our way, we look angry to people. And even when I'm super excited about something, if I'm really focused, I have RBF. I can be really passionate about the topic, And I get so into the psychology behind the psychology that people are like, why are you so mean? And I was like, no.

No. No. That was passion. I'm so sorry. Like, I don't confuse the 2, but that's something that I have to recognize as a part of it. But the downside of that was that because there were so many Stumbling blocks along the way. I never trusted myself. And so my first reaction, I learned to think that my first reaction was the wrong reaction, and I was doing The opposite.

And over time, you can only imagine how not trusting yourself and not trusting where you were being led Can hurt you over time. And so for me, a big learning curve was learning to trust my gut, to learn that, okay, the reason that you thought that was because it's True. Those dreams are worthy of being pursued. Like, you are worthy of chasing your dreams. That was something I had to learn myself. But if you have someone on the team that's a part of the body triad, you know, eights, we have a lot of opinions, but depending on Our work experience, we've never said them out loud because it does get us in trouble because we don't have a softer brush to things. A 9 being a peacemaker. They just want other people to be happy, so they still won't speak up because they rather everyone else be served and pleased.

But They are fueled with a lot of things, and are ready to go. They actually have thoughts. Sometimes you have to call A 9 out, but they might not speak. So maybe you ask a 9 on your team to write down their opinions. The suggestion box idea works really well for nines. They do have ideas. They're just scared to ruffle feathers in how they say things as well. A one.

Right or wrong, black or white, they have a very strong standard of excellence. They make great pastors. They make great lawyers. They make great teachers, educators as well. But if they're not in the right setting, a lot of people just see them as holier than thou. And they're like, no. Actually, I just want good in the I just want to include and serve and benefit others. But if they're not given the right platform, people can perceive it in the wrong way.

And so All of us having to learn how to trust our gut and not let anger hold us back from finding the justice that we desire. Same thing with your twos, threes, and fours. I feel like a lot of online entrepreneurs are part of the heart triad, and we want good in the world. But when we're not able to see the impact that we're making, when they're not able to see that lives are better, that money is being made, that charities are being funded, They start to feel ashamed. Like, all of a sudden, the whole world is on their backs, and they have let everyone down. And you're like, No. You just had the flu and you needed 2 days off. Like, it's going to be okay, but that's not how they see it.

As well also recognizing if you have a 2, 3, or 4 on your team. That one, you are going to have to say, hey. Good job, and I see you, and I appreciate you. You are gonna have to take 5 seconds of your time. Don't need to buy them a trophy, but you do need to use your I mean, they'll take a trophy. Don't get me wrong. But you'll have to, but you are gonna to say, hey. 2, 3, or 4.

I see you. I hear you. I acknowledge you, and I appreciate that you're still going. I appreciate that you're part of my team. A lot of threes will probably be the CEO because they want everyone else to see them as successful. They actually probably don't want to be the boss, but their desire to please others and that's for a lot of 2, threes, and fours. So the head triad, Heart triad. I'm sorry.

They want to please others. And so in order to do that, they keep rising to the top. They keep becoming the leader. But the truth is our system overall, and I'm being very, very broad, does not want people to lead effectively, Does not teach us how to be leaders. Like, you have to go out of your way to say, I would like to be a good leader. Please give me information. Feel you have to get a PhD in leadership for people to recognize and believe that, like, you're doing it for the right reason sometimes as well. And so you'll see a 3 go out of their way to prove themselves with accolades to design their entire wall with their trophies and their certificates, their diplomas for that reason.

Where your fours are like, show me the opposite. I want to show you how different I am, How much I can stand out. And so finding a way to bring that back in and balance that, but recognizing that if you don't say, I see you. I hear you invalidate your heart centered people. They will internalize that in a way that actually defeats the entire purpose and goal as well. So just tell them that you appreciate your twos, threes, and fours, 2 threes, and fours. I appreciate you. I see you.

I hear you, and that's gonna bring the entire team moving forward. And then last but certainly not least, the head triad. 5, 6, and 7. So your fives are your researchers. Your 6 are your loyalists or guardians and your 7th being your spontaneous enthusiast party animals as well, but all of them have a 100 ideas running through their brain. Your fives can plan an entire wedding weekend in about 30 seconds with details, with budget, and tell you where every vendor is coming from. And you're like, have you met the bride yet? We're like, oh, no. Not yet.

And I've seen that with my wedding planners as well. And you'll see that I think fives make phenomenal number twos or number threes in a business, and they're the best Support to a type seven ever. Because sevens have ideas, but they don't write them down. A 5 will write it down, give them the plan, And actually be excited to keep doing the operational work behind that sevens vision. So they'll make really great business partners. Not saying you have to work with someone In that, they make great balance to each other as well. The sixes are loyalist. They are going to stick to you like glue.

They also have a lot of information, but they use that information to stay connected with you. You could almost think of them as that friend that knows random trivia about Everything as well, but you also know that they're the 1st person you're going to call when you're like, I don't know this. I can't find it on Google. They've got your back And your 7th, like I said, a 1000000 ideas going through their head, but their brain's going so fast that they would actually forget if it's a time to write it down. And so finding that balance. But for those 7s, if they are not being seen for their thoughts, their ideas, if you're not listening To all of the information that they have, they start to feel afraid. They will pull back and feel like they are completely unloved and unworthy Because no one is listening to what they have. And I will say as an 8, and to anyone else that is a leader, so my threes too that we tend to dominate this space.

Your fives are right, so stop challenging them. They actually are right. They probably know more than you do. Don't care if you have a PhD. They still probably have done more research. They just didn't get the letters behind their name to do it. So trust your fives. You everyone should have a fives On their team at some point, even if it's not your 1st hire, you need a 5 on your team.

I just have to say I just have to say real quick, as a 5, I'm I'm gonna make my husband and back to what you just said.

Yeah. You know? Listen. It took a long time for me to get there and to accept it, and all my aids listening are rolling their eyes, but it's Totally fine. You don't have to admit it. You just need to hire a 500 team at some point. And recognize that they are fives and eights also work really well together because eights Are ready to run, but we don't want to stop and think until those 5s will help balance us out and think when we don't want to make the time to do those And so I think the the balance of communication, though, is really important. And so recognizing that shame and rejection, that fear or that anger, Where is it coming from based on those triads, and how can we fuel it to help others, to serve others, and to balance out our team to help, to serve, to give, to provide information, to make the world a better place because we all want good in the world, but we Get triggered a certain way if it's not happening the way we imagined it as well.

Yeah. Oh my goodness. I want to really dive in to so many aspects of this. But let's go back to you were mentioning, like, the CEO and COO relationship at some point, And I just wanna touch on this and ask maybe a couple of questions or your take on it. So for me as a 5, I really have been in the background as a COO and been very comfortable there for a lot of my career. And then I've had to really, I think maybe go with the the grow like, the direction of growth as an eight and really embrace that to step into the CEO role in my own business. And Now I have a 2nd in command, and he is an 8. So we're a 5 8 duo, but almost like maybe I feel like almost the reverse.

Like, some days I feel like I'm more of the integrator type, but I'm having to step into that CEO role. And I don't know why I bring this up other than just out of curiosity, I suppose, but, like, Any take on me personally transitioning into that higher level and also for listeners, like, that combination of the CEO, COO role because I work with so many who either already have a second in command or really want to have a second in command.

Yeah. So I think that first thing is for you. And like you said, you recognize that, like, it was comfortable for me. And so how do you find that growth to grow your business. Right? I've seen you I've been stalking on social media long enough. So I've seen what you've done with so many other businesses, but now it's time for you to take that for your business. And so let's see 8 figures soon. I'm just pushing it out to you.

But that's me as an 8. Right? I'm just projecting that you're going to 8 figures next. But as you do that, that growth is gonna be an adjustment because you used to, like you said, implement someone else's vision, and now you have to take that vision and have others it for you. And I think the hard thing and I'm not saying that you do this, but to make sure that you never micromanage someone, That you trust the people that you hire, and that's everyone. Right? We need to trust the people. That's the whole point of an interview is to make sure that that balance Is there for what you need? I think a lot of people when they're creating a job description, when they are hiring this is me speaking as a recruiter. So All of people that have to hire. They go, well, this is what I want.

I need someone with this many years of experience in this industry knowing x, y, and z, But we forget to think about what are the gaps on our team. And if you're a solopreneur and you're hiring those first few people, What do you need to balance you out? And so for you at your core knowing you're a 5, you know that you need someone who's going to push you out of your comfort So do you hire the gate to be your COO? Because at the end of the day, he's gonna tell you probably what you don't want to hear, but still Need to hear. And so that balance still works out that although you're the CEO and he's the COO, you're still gonna have someone pushing you to lead, to be an effective leader, out of your comfort zone to be the best version of yourself. And so that balance still comes into play. And so it's not just about Who's gonna check these boxes or who's going to I think the thought is when I hire a VA, they take x, y, and z off my plate. And I'm like, cool. But your VA is also part of your team. And so if you're less than 6 figures in your business, that VA is a pseudo COO Until you get in that level and you need to start thinking that way from the beginning.

A lot of people don't think about that. Like, right? We're taught to delegate as a leader, but we're not Taught how to lead others. And so that's what I get, like, all riled up about. And I know you do the same Yeah. Thing as well. But If you've ever been number 2, 3, or 4 in a position right now, we're all 18 at our 1st job at some point. You've had a boss. How did that boss treat you? And so either you need to be better than the boss that you had or you desire to be just the boss that you had.

And being a boss is easy, but being a leader is another level. How are you managing others? How are you listening to what they mean? How are you creating space that they still get to go home and sleep at night regardless of the industry that you're in. Even if it's like we're not sleeping this weekend, but you can sleep on Monday, What is that balance that you create for your team? So it's about recognizing. It's about understanding. But the first thing is really to be aware of How you are going to show up so that you can see what's needed. And I know filling in the gaps of where do I fall short is nothing you want to pay attention to, That's gonna be the key thing to making sure that you hire people that you know, like, and trust so that they can also know, like, and trust you too.

Yeah. You know, they're such a big thing. I hear this all the time. And, you know, entrepreneurs will come to me and they'll say, I want to hire someone. But, essentially, like, they here's what they say. They say, I wanna clone myself. And I'm like, no. You don't.

No. You don't.

No. You shouldn't. That's great. Because 2 of you in their business means that you're gonna be stuck in the exact same place. And so if you're really great with operations, And you want someone who's gonna be really great with being the face. Right? And so maybe you're a person who is really good behind the scenes. A little bit harder in online business where we have to be our brand and we have to be the face of our business. But, hey, if you're doing products, You hire a fitness model and they get to be the face of your business.

But whether you are Nike or Facebook or, you know, us as online business owners, there still needs To be a representation and a face. And do you wanna show up as a sports mom, which you and I both Kind of do as well, or do you wanna show up as, like, I am the corporate executive that I literally show up on Instagram with a suit on? Like, Personal choices of recognizing what that foundation is going to be and know that as you show up authentically, which is the truth that we never want do. But when you show up as the real you and how you look 90% of the time, which for me is not a suit, You know, that's what's gonna bring in the people who are actually going to excel in your with your services, excel with the product that they have. You want someone to have phenomenal results After they pay you, and that's because you're showing up as your true Enneagram type. So you're building your team by saying, this is who I am. Right? I hope you like it. Think about the same thing with your marriage. I know people are like, oh, my business is not like my marriage, but it is.

It's a relationship. It's a working relationship, not Intimate one, but it's that same thing of we're gonna be sitting together. Everyone wants to say they don't work that hard. So 20 hours a week. The truth is 30, 40, 50, 60, depending on where you are in your business. We're showing up together in this environment, and whether it's virtual or in person, We need to get to know each other on a way that we can respect each other, that we can trust each other, but that we can also push back on the other person to get what we need. Right? As an employee, at some point in your life, you've learned how to get what you need out of your manager. Whether it's a day off, whether it's a raise, whether it's recognition for a job well done.

And so you need to continue that same momentum. Okay. I recognize you. I see you. I'm gonna validate your hard work with an extra bonus. Right? We have phenomenal launch of a 100 k. Yes. You have your base pay, but here's a bonus because we did better than the initial goal or whatever that might look like, and so never abandoning someone that's supporting you as well.

So the same time you invest in a personal relationship, you also wanna invest in your teams and the people you're working with, And that's gonna create a client experience that makes your clients come back or tell their friends that come to you as well. So it it honestly all adds The bottom line was you know how to lead effectively.

100%. Okay. If people wanna dive in more, where Can they learn more about you? Because there's a lot more to talk about, and I want everyone to know where to find you.

Yeah. So on social media, I show up most on Instagram, so come find me there at Coach Kettes. Links in my bio if you want to work with me, and I also have a podcast called Amplify Ambition. And so tips, tricks, calling you out because I am a type eight. That's where you can hear it most often on the podcast Broadmeister Brown.

Perfect. And if you had just one thing to leave everyone with, what would that be?

Dream loudly. Your dreams are there for a reason. And regardless of the obstacles that you're facing, do not allow others or yourself to Hold you back, and so go chase your dreams. Figure out how to make it happen. And if you're committed to it, you can knock down every wall that's in your way.

Thank you. Thank you so much.

Thank you. This was so much fun.