Kathryn Binkley:

Hey. Hey. And welcome back to the podcast. Today, I have Tracy with me. Tracy, welcome. Thank you. I appreciate it! Would you please introduce yourself and tell everyone about exactly what you do?

Tracey Lewis Stoeckel:

Sure. My name is Tracy Lewis Stoeckel. I am an online course consultant and coach. And what I do is help people, mainly get through the overwhelm of creating their first or their next of course. I have a background in corporate education as well as higher education and a master's degree in education. So my focus is making sure that my clients create a course that their audience is craving, that it turns their audience into raving fans and brings them back for more.

Kathryn Binkley:

That's awesome. How did you get into all of that? I'm curious.

Tracey Lewis Stoeckel:

It all started ten and a half years ago after my divorce. My home-based product business wouldn't support myself and my two kids. My parents offered to help with tuition if I returned to school. Though I already had a bachelor's degree, I opted for a medical assisting diploma. The medical field, after all, seemed recession-proof. I loved working as a medical assistant, but after a few years, the income limitations became real. Then, my alma mater contacted me about an instructor position. That initial part-time role eventually led to running the program itself. To further my career within the college, I pursued a master's degree while also heavily involved in course creation, curriculum development, and administration. Unfortunately, the for-profit college industry went bust, at least here in Minnesota. I landed a job as the director of education and much more for a hospital-based ambulance service, focusing heavily on content and course creation again.

Tracey Lewis Stoeckel:

And, eventually, I just decided that, rather than work in the misogynistic industry that ambulance is, that I would like to work for myself again. And my intention was to transition very slowly. My boss was amazing. She was going to retire in, July of 2019. And I said, you know, when Deb goes, I go. I'm gonna retire with her. So I started putting my plans in place. And she ended up retiring a year early. And because of how things, you know, kind of fell out, I said, well, one time goes, I go. And I decided to leave, a little earlier than I was ready for, but it's worked out. So, I've been pursuing my business full time for just a little over
a year now.

Kathryn Binkley:

Okay. Wow. So I can see how your background certainly plays into what you do now. I'm sure there's no way you saw that all coming, though.

Tracey Lewis Stoeckel:

No. Not at all. It's so interesting. You know? I would have never a lot of the changes in my life, I would have never asked for. But looking back, I wouldn't have changed anything. Like, The, you know, the long and windy road has led me right to exactly to where I am, and I wouldn't change a thing.

Kathryn Binkley:

Yeah. So good. So I just have to ask because I always like to ask any guests on the show, what is it about what you do that really lights you up?

Tracey Lewis Stoeckel:

I think the thing that really lights me up is so many of my clients come to me, and the only thing that their course and that their program is lacking as their own self confidence. I just had a call yesterday with a potential client, and she said, I think it's really good, But I'd really like someone else to tell me that. And in a lot of cases, you know, I can always find things to tweak and ways to make things just a little better and bring in the adult, psych learner psychology that I know so well. But in the end, it's them walking away feeling confident and that watching that transformation during the time we work together between them starting out not feeling so great about what they're putting out in the world to, you know, walking away knowing that they're putting out a great product, and it's really going to teach the thing that they intend to teach and create those raving fans that we want.

Kathryn Binkley:

Well, I can definitely relate. I understand that feeling, and I'm so grateful that someone like you exists. Because after chatting with you recently and learning a bit more, like I know I'm excited to continue to hear more from you. I know firsthand what it's like to have a ton of like, a shit ton of experience in what I do, but then still question myself when it comes time to put it all into a nice little bow or this package to sell as a course. There's a big difference in more than a decade of working with people and being able to see in their face when the light bulb clicks and they get it, and if they struggle at all being able to fill in the absent answer questions and really transitioning from that to trying to just, you know, package it all really nicely.

Tracey Lewis Stoeckel:

I think that it's actually been a struggle of mine as well because I've tended to want to put everything into a program and then at other times, feel like I'm not putting nearly enough and really trying to figure out that balance. And you're absolutely right. So much of it does come into come down to confidence. But I know those are a couple of things that have weighed on my mind over the years as I've created programs, and I'm sure you come up, you know, you hear a lot of other things as well, a lot of other challenges. What are some of the biggest mistakes that you've seen?

Tracey Lewis Stoeckel:

The biggest mistake that I see over and over, and it makes me crazy. If you visit my Facebook page ever, you'll see at least 1 rant, on the subject. His people reading their slides, There's it's such a rookie mistake, and so many people do it. But I've seen actually really, really established course builders, people who make a lot of money on their course launches still predominantly reading their slides. Your slides should be a visual. It should be something to look at and hold interest while you're while you're speaking, You know, if you're doing voice over PowerPoint. But you don't need to have all the words on there. There should be, you know, maybe a picture, maybe just a few points to remind you of what you're gonna talk about.

Tracey Lewis Stoeckel:

Every word that comes out of your mouth does not need to be printed on your slide, and that's the biggest one. And for me as a kind of sewer of courses, I will turn it off. If I get you know, I'm halfway through the first lesson and all they're doing is reading their slides to me. I'll stop, and then I'll just read the transcript because and then, you know, it makes more sense to do it that way. So that's the biggest one. I think the other thing, that I see a lot is that they're not a lot of course creators just aren't including any reinforcement materials. Our brains need to encounter the same piece of knowledge 10 times in order to you know, for it to be committed to memory. And we hear that in marketing too.

Tracey Lewis Stoeckel:

In marketing, they say it's 7 times. You have to see the same message before you act. It's exactly the same thing with adult learners. And when you can talk about something, and hopefully, you'll bring it up again later on in another lesson to reinforce it. But the best way to reinforce what you're trying to tell people is to give them sort some sort of exercise, a worksheet, you know, if there a workbook along with the course, especially if it's a concept that's sort of hard to grasp. We like to think that our learners will take notes on something that they wanna remember for later, but chances are they're not going to Unless you give them that worksheet, something to take notes on, and then that really reminds them that it's important.

Kathryn Binkley:

Yeah. That's so good. I've definitely seen the importance of having something to go along, so I hear what you're saying there. What would you say maybe we can dive into this and you can guide this conversation whatever direction you choose, but one topic I know I'm just interested in is kind of teeing up a training to make sure that there's some context beforehand to kind of attach the new learning to without going back to the very beginning or the basics, but also to make sure everyone's starting from the same page or understanding. I always just feel like I've got to say standing. Like, I always just feel like I've got to say everything and tell them everything, and that's not possible nor is it really productive or helpful. Right.

Tracey Lewis Stoeckel:

So what I teach my clients is that you need to have an outcome, for your course. So what is it that you're trying to get them to do? If it's, maybe it's to create a graphic in Pinterest. So that's your end goal that at the end of your course, they're gonna be able to successfully create a, you know, maybe a pin for Pinterest, and they're gonna do that in, you know, in Canva or whatever. So the idea is that you work backwards from that end goal, and everything that you include in your course should contribute in some way to that end goal. If all of a sudden you're talking about how to get on group boards in Pinterest and you're not talking about how to create that graphic, then that doesn't need to be in that lesson. You know, that's not something we need to be talking about. We're here to create a pin. That's what we're doing.

Tracey Lewis Stoeckel:

So it really is kind of working backwards from that end goal and making sure, you know and I I'm going through the same thing right now in building my course. Like, what do I include? What don't I include? Should this be a separate course altogether and you just keep measuring it by that, you know, kind of thermometer? Does do I need this in order to create this outcome? Yes. I probably do. Then I'll include it. And if I don't, if it's just luck, then we'll leave it out.

Kathryn Binkley:

I know that there's definitely benefit to, just in time learning, and it's not the approach that I took for a long time. I would consume anything and everything. And I think, by nature, that's really what I needed to do at the time because I started out my career in full service marketing agencies and had a wide variety of clients and could use anything and everything at any point. Literally, I was working with, you know, Several clients at one time and lots of different projects. But now it's very different in in online entrepreneurship. I found myself learning things. I think you and I even chatted about this learning something, and then you don't even need it until.. Way down the road.

Kathryn Binkley:

And I have to be careful not to do that with my own clients. Right? I wanna make it available when they really need to know and not just when they wanna know because people ask you for things too. Right. But they don't even need to know yet. Yeah.

Tracey Lewis Stoeckel:

And I would argue that your learning back with the agency was just in time. Even though you studied all the things, it was that was exactly what you needed to know. Yeah. And I see that all the time too. People will, you know, will ask me about wanna get on a strategy call with me about a course they're not ready to build. And I know from experience, like, where you are right now and where you are gonna be 3 months from now could be a totally different place. Let's wait.

Tracey Lewis Stoeckel:

Let's build your strategy when you're ready to dive in because if you're not ready now, you know, then it's just gonna distract you from what you are doing, and you'll lose your focus.

Kathryn Binkley:

Yeah. I mean, I know how many times I've switched, you know, switched gears or changed things in my business. And the outside looking in, you may be able to see some changes, but there are a lot of things behind the scenes that aren't even visible. Right? And I know based on just the changes that I've made in the different directions, like How many things I could've waited on or would've been a better fit at a different time, that kind of thing. And it pains all of us.

Tracey Lewis Stoeckel:

Yeah. And that whole, the whole fear of missing out thing too with courses. I you know, and I'm the biggest when it comes to imposter syndrome and FOMO and all the stuff that you know? Well, maybe I should buy this now because it's on sale or the early bird price is gonna end even though I'm not going to look at this for, you know, a year from now, like, according to my long term plan. Maybe I should just get it now, and then I'll have it. And that's, Something that we all get sucked into with courses too.

Kathryn Binkley:

Yeah. Absolutely. I've done that as well. I know I have one course sitting there waiting right now that I knew that I would want to tackle in 2019, but not at the beginning of 2019. And so it's still on my to do list at some point, but at least I'm not trying to dive into that material when I know I don't need it yet. Right. But it's sitting there waiting, so I'm guilty of that too.

Kathryn Binkley:

I think it's okay that I'm not gonna, like, beat myself up over it, but you're absolutely right. That's definitely Something to keep in mind. So one thing to help with that, I think, is just to mention to everyone how quickly things change in the online space. And if you buy something, knowing that you don't really need it right now, so much will change by the time you actually implement. And we're talking even if it is a few months for now. And, hopefully, the course creator keeps things updated, but there's no guarantee of that. And so maybe it's a good idea to hold off until you know that you need it.

Tracey Lewis Stoeckel:

And I've done this where and I hope, like, I hope if that they're out there in the podcast world that everybody's raising their hand and saying me too. But I get to the end of the year, and I'm organizing my receipts for taxes. And I find receipts for courses that I bought that I forgot that I bought and that I don't remember how to access. And you get back in touch with the course creator and say, oh, hey. I bought this, and I don't think I ever got the login information, and they're no longer even supporting that course anymore Because, you know, they've switched gears in their business, and they're going in a different direction. So, you know, like, there's so many people out there that are creating courses. It's a multibillion Dollar industry, but not everybody's going to survive it.

Tracey Lewis Stoeckel:

I think in a lot of cases, buying a course that you're not planning to even, you know, access for several months is Maybe a bad plan because you never know where that person's business is going to be.

Kathryn Binkley:

So that's it. That's definitely a valid point. But let's look at that from the other side, from imagining our audience, not just as those consuming courses, which we all are, but also those creating them. So how can we make sure that the listeners today create courses that will survive? What are some tips that you have from your area of expertise? Because It's beyond just creating a course.

Tracey Lewis Stoeckel:

I think one of the biggest things in my the thing that I say all the time is people don't say nice things about courses they didn't finish. So there's a few things that come into that. And the first Thing is follow-up after the sale, and, you know, this is just classic customer service. But I can't tell you how many times I've purchased something, and I never, You know, I never hear from that person again.

Tracey Lewis Stoeckel:

They don't check-in to see how the course is going. They don't touch base with me. They don't ask me if I'm satisfied. There's nothing. So I think that's a huge part of it, making sure that you're going back to the people who purchased your courses and say, hey. How's it going? Is there something else you need? I'm always, always asking for feedback. If somebody's struggling with something, I'm not necessarily you know, they didn't buy that as part of the course. It's not necessarily something I'm going to give them, But I still need to know that I missed something in the course, that when I, you know, when I update it, there's something else that needs to be added.

Tracey Lewis Stoeckel:

So that's the first thing. Like, just making sure that your learner remembers that they bought the course so that they'll actually take it Yeah. Because you're touching base with them. But then the other thing is that just really making sure that your learners can stay engaged in what you're offering. And I think the easiest way to do that is to give them wins throughout the course. So you're going back to our Pinterest graphic, making sure that we give them something in that very first lesson that they can actually execute and feel good about themselves. Maybe we're gonna send them out to find, you know, photos, stock photos to use in their pins. And then they're gonna have this library of stock photos that they've upgraded you know, uploaded to Canva.

Tracey Lewis Stoeckel:

Well, there's a win. And now they're already excited when they've got one hard thing done. They're going to proceed to the next lesson where we'll give them another little win. As long as we keep sort of reinforcing it's just like with little kids. You know? Good job. Look what you did. Now let's, You know, let's build on that and do something else. Then they're going to keep progressing to the course, and they won't stall out as easily as if you save, like, the project till the very, very end.

Tracey Lewis Stoeckel:

So we wanna give them wins, give them early, give them often, and make sure that they're, you know, progressing through the course and not Getting stuck somewhere and needing help or just forgetting that it exists. And it doesn't matter how good a job you do. If someone says, hey. Did you take Tracy's course? And they're like, oh, yeah. I started, but I didn't finish it, then they don't say nice things, and that's not what we want. We want raving fans.

Kathryn Binkley:

Absolutely. So first of all, those are some incredible tips there for everyone to implement, and you've got me thinking about how to make sure that I've got quick wins throughout all of my programs. Like, because sometimes there may be, like, this bigger, deliverable later on that we're building towards, but there are certainly some quick wins. And, hopefully, I've done that through some of the exercise and workbooks that I've provided, but I'm definitely sitting here spinning, thinking that I did that. So definitely something for us to all go back and check. But, Secondly, like, I wanna I'm just really curious about diving into each individual lesson or module. Is there a certain kind of a framework that you like to use to for example, like addressing the importance up front and then delivering the content and then the call to action.

Kathryn Binkley:

I mean, I know from a marketing standpoint, there are certain ways that we structure messaging, and I'm just curious if there's something similar to, like, tee up the lesson, if there's I'm sure there's multiple ways, but is there any advice around that that you can give?

Tracey Lewis Stoeckel:

There are multiple ways. The way that they teach teachers is to basically tell them what you're going to tell them, tell them the thing, and then tell you them what you tell them what you told them. So that's your 3 basic points, you know, that when we're talking about those 10 points of repetition. I feel like that comes off kind of, I don't know. Even though scripted, like, when you know, today, we're going to talk about this thing, and then you talk about the thing and they go, And, well, that's it. We talked about the thing. Like, it just doesn't seem natural. It doesn't flow for most people.

Tracey Lewis Stoeckel:

Even when I would sit in and observe my instructors There's in my program at the college. When they do that, it doesn't sound natural. So two things. The approach that I think, is most effective is To sort of recap whatever you've already just talked about and kind of like when you watch a television show. On our last episode, we saw, You know, this thing happened, and now we start from there and move forward. I think that's super effective from an standpoint, and it also takes into account that maybe your learners, you know, they've been busy at work. They haven't, you know, they haven't watched the last lesson. It's been a couple weeks, so you need to recap a little bit.

Tracey Lewis Stoeckel:

I also, though, like to not do that in some cases because then all of your modules of your course standalone, and you can pull them out, use them as a freebie or an opt in. You can you know, if you have a client that's struggling with something, you can just say, hey. Here's this 1 module. So, I think the best way to do it is just to make sure that at the end of your lesson that you summarize Pretty heavily what those in in you know, what the, the fine points were. If you look at any textbook, You know, you they've got all of the all of the things in the lesson at the end, a glossary, and a summary. If we're doing that with our lessons, I think that We're really pounding home, what the idea is and also not being afraid to like, in the course of, you know, delivering your lecture, if you will, because I'm a college instructor at heart. Saying things over and over again is perfectly okay. Well, I just reviewed a course for a client, and she was, you know, talking on a subject and trying to drive home that if you don't do this correctly, you could end up in some legal trouble.

Tracey Lewis Stoeckel:

And she said the same thing probably 4 or 5 times with varying juries of intensity within, you know, just a few sentences, And it was marvelous. No one who takes her course is ever going to forget that lesson, and, you know, they're not going to make that mistake. And if they do, they can't say that she didn't tell them so. I mean, it was it was really, really powerful. So I think a lot of times we're like, well, I don't wanna repeat myself. I don't want it to be boring. It's okay to repeat yourself. If it's important to say once, go ahead and say it again.

Kathryn Binkley:

Yeah. You're right. Going back to the thing you said earlier about needing to hear something 10 times to commit it to memory.

Kathryn Binkley:

I was just thinking back to college. I was actually a psychology major, philosophy minor, and, also very active in dance. We didn't have that as a major when I was in college, but if we had, I may have pursued it. But I did take a class, and it was actually an independent study on dance pedagogy, which is all about the study of, like, teaching. Right? I remember doing lesson plans and having to collaborate with both our, instructor and also the director over the education department.

Kathryn Binkley:

And I wasn't in any of those classes, but I had to learn how to create lesson plans. And, like, I'm like, I don't even remember what I did, but I'm sitting here thinking. I'm like, oh, I used to have to do that for that one independent study, and great. And it was certainly different since it was about dance, and it was very much more, a physical, type of class versus teaching Language around something or I wasn't teaching dance history or something. Right? But it would still be fascinating to go back and look at that. I'm sure there are some parallels that you've seen or experienced, between creating Lesson plans like a typical teacher does every day, day in, day out, and then what's needed for an online course. Absolutely.

Tracey Lewis Stoeckel:

I mean, the thing about a lesson plan is, you know, you're basically laying out what you intend to teach, which, you know, the course outline probably in my in my terms, But then also looking at what order do things need to come in. So, you know, with dance, you can't teach, you know, one thing before the thing that's gonna make that possible. You know, if you haven't taught them how to, I don't know, pirouette, you maybe you can't teach them how to leap. I don't know what kind of dance we're talking about. Yeah. But Yeah. And making sure that they have the like, you're doing it in the right order so you've got the basis to build on. And then the other thing about Lesson plan is making sure that you're prepared for every one of those lessons.

Tracey Lewis Stoeckel:

So what do I need to know when I walk into the classroom, or what do I need to know when I Turn on my microphone and I record this lesson, making sure that, you know, that you're ready to teach that. And it's so similar, really. Like, people like, it's, You know, teaching online is nothing like teaching in classroom, and I would agree that in terms of engagement and being able to, like, watch and say, okay. My students have all fallen asleep. That's different between a classroom and online, but being prepared to deliver your lecture and the responsibility for making sure that you don't all of a sudden just Say, oh, wait. Let me look that up. I've got it. Like, I you know, I'm not really sure what I was talking about, and now I have to, you know, get the facts or whatever.

Tracey Lewis Stoeckel:

Like, it's the same. You want to be polished and ready to rock and roll when you turn that microphone on. It needs to be professional and sound good. Or, again, just like people who read their slides, your audience is gonna stop. They're gonna stop listening and watching.

Kathryn Binkley:

Great. Wow. Okay. So Any other tips or things that you know that the audience needs to hear if they're going out to start creating a course Literally later today, what are some other things to consider? I know you can't tell them everything they need to know, but what are some things that they need top of mind?

Tracey Lewis Stoeckel:

Oh, boy. The wins in engagement is big. I think the other thing is that you have to be really clear on who your audience is. And I mean and I mean, like, crystal clear. You have to be able to picture, like, my audience is this way. That will help you Develop every part of your course. If you know, maybe your course has, like, an artistic, feel to it, you're teaching painting or underwater the weaving. Then there's this that your though your people are going to relate better to pictures and less towards and, you know, the intellectual components.

Tracey Lewis Stoeckel:

You wanna make in they want a platform that's pretty. You know? Like, if you're dealing with people that are Really technical. You're teaching something super technical, then they're gonna want something that's not as pretty, that looks more Smart. I don't can't let a loss of words today. Yeah. But something that matches their level of technicality. And if you're if you're dealing with like, we're I'm teaching computer programming, it's really important to make sure that you're teaching at their level and not below their level versus, you know, teaching beginning Facebook ads or something where we just assume automatically that the only thing they've ever heard of is And maybe not even that. So those things are really important.

Tracey Lewis Stoeckel:

Just knowing who they are, knowing what it is that they need exactly So that you're not so you're not wasting an opportunity to engage them, from the beginning. And, And, you know, people come to me all the time. My biggest question I get asked is, what platform do I choose to build my course on? Nick, the short answer is it doesn't really matter, but The the long answer is it just depends on who you're building it for. You have to know, like, you know, my audience is going to demand This level or, you know, they're just here to get the get the information, and they're not gonna care what the course looks like. It's I mean, it's just one of those things that just being really, really clear on who they are, obviously, what problem you're solving for them because that is the ultimate Goal, that you know what that outcome needs to be and that you deliver on that outcome so that they come back to you.

Kathryn Binkley:

So many good nuggets in here. If you're listening and you're considering creating a course, this has certainly given you some things to Think about and to make sure are present, but there's a whole lot more. A lot more. Not much more. And so if they want to know more about, creating a course, not just any course, but one that the students actually will take away What they intend and implement and get that good feedback that you mentioned, once they actually finish the course because it's good, what where do they need to go to learn more?

Tracey Lewis Stoeckel:

Well, I'm always at, my website, tracyteaches.biz, and also on Facebook, on my Tracy teaches page, just facebook.com/tracyteaches, I am in the process of putting the finishing touches On a program called create the course your audience craves, which is there'll be a an evergreen course or a VIP Experience, we're calling it, where you get a little bit of me involved in that, some weekly q and a's, and even some content review as part of that program. That will be launching. The goal is September 9th. If, the good lord's willing and the crook don't rise, that will be the day that she goes live. So you'll be able to find out about that by visiting, tracyteaches.biz.

Kathryn Binkley:

Awesome. And we will make sure to link that In the show notes for everyone. Definitely go check it out. I had the opportunity to chat with Tracy earlier. And kind of have a little bit of an idea of what's going into that, and it looks incredible. So be sure to check it out. If you are, building a course, then I think it's a must that you go check it out. You owe yourself to at least go take a look. Thanks so much for joining me today, Tracy.

Tracey Lewis Stoeckel:

Thanks for having me. I appreciate it. And, I look forward to talking to you soon!